Thing with Jon is that I basically banned him on account of many circumstantial pieces of evidence, all of which he refuted to a point of reasonable doubt. He didn’t really try denying the things I saw, but he provided counter-arguments as to how that might’ve happened by pure luck/chance/skills.
In this case, the guy’s explanation for why he was looking at people through walls was “I wasn’t”, which isn’t really a good explanation. That is to say, Zeldo, if you have a good explanation of why you were tracking players behind walls (which our admin reported seeing you doing, and I will take his word for it), then things are back up for discussion.
I’d just like to point out that most, if not all, of the players who accuse the admins of lying and deem them incompetent were in fact actually cheating.
On topic: I wholeheartedly agree with Dakeku. Zeldo, we’re not asking you to wrongfully admit guilt. We’re asking you to be nice and respectful to the admins, as they ultimately determine whether you get unbanned. I also agree with what Reki said. It’s one thing to provide and explanation for why you knew a player was there. For example, sometimes in arena, I go around a corner, catch a glimpse of an enemy, then I rubberband back to where that player is no longer visible, but I know that they’re there due to my lag. However, it is completely different to say “I wasn’t”, because that then means that one of you is either mistaken or lying, and admins are admins because they usually do not make mistakes, and have no reason to lie.
I really do apologize for being disrespectful, but I am upset with how this is being handled. This is like the Salem Witch Trials. Right now, as I understand, I have to admit that I was looking at players through walls, and then create some sort of explanation as to why? How can I explain why I was doing something that I didn’t even do? I think I’d rather stick by my own thoughts instead of lying just to have a slightly higher chance of going free.
So you’re essentially saying that you were never following players behind a wall, or doing something which may be mistaken as such (maybe a coincidental swivel of your screen)? If so, you’re essentially saying that Colorpinpoint was lying.
Colorpinpoint, are you absolutely sure you saw Zeldo track players behind the wall, or performed some sort of action which looked like he was tracking players behind a wall?
I wouldn’t normally meddle in other people’s affairs, but I feel a sort of obligation to, this time.
I don’t think the fact that Colorpinpoint was lying was his main argument, or issue. This could be a huge misunderstanding.
I do agree with the notion of taking screencaptures or even videos for the allegedly hacking or banned. It wouldn’t have to be anything big, maybe just a few Pokit images of the screen. Things like the kill board being spammed up with someone’s name, or the person shooting through bricks when there is someone there.
I hope this all gets sorted out. I would just like to see the players being treated fairly. In my opinion, he wasn’t hacking at all. I don’t think we should hold the admin’s ideas higher than the ban-ee’s. Evidence means a lot in things like this, so we just have to go by ear for both members.
Thanks for reading.
No, colorpinpoint likely was not lying , it was just a misunderstanding. Still, I’d like to point out a few things. Here’s one quote from you, Reki, that you posted on Paravox’s guide to tell the difference between hackers, those with lag, or those with skill.
You say you must hunt down, test, and VERIFY hackers, but I don’t see any of this as of yet. All I see is accusations and excuses as to why there’s no proof. In response to Nein’s post, it’s pointed out that you don’t need a 20 minute video, you don’t need to record every match you partake in, you don’t need to sift through hours of video to find a hacker. All you need to do is have your suspicion, spectate the player, and take a screencap or two of any suspicious behavior. Even more effective would be to use fraps to record a small segment, as you can turn fraps on with the press of a button and stop recording with the press of a button. Everyone in this thread who says it’s too complicated is flat-out wrong. I’m not telling you how to do your job, moderators/admins, but these people in this thread are telling you NOT to do your job. I’m merely saying that things can be more effective, and perhaps you wouldn’t have so many ban appeals on your hands. It’s easier to press a button a few times for irrefutable proof than to argue with another for days.
I have another quote on hand, from colorpinpoint this time. This is from another ban appeal thread, in which one player was accused of using a no-recoil hack.
Re: Second Ban Appeal for RaRaRiot
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2012, 11:46:23 AM HST »
Yes, You WERE hacking. I caught you with no recoil hack. I ovl’d you and you didn’t seem to have recoil.
Once again, a permaban with no proof. Your excuse/argument for this is basically, “because I said so.”
If hunting down, testing, and verifying hackers is part of your job, why aren’t you doing it?
Hate to break it to you, but you aren’t the one who decides who needs to do anything.
Color does not need to record anything. The fact that he does record often is very nice and helpful, but that is something he chooses to do.
The fact that he did not choose to record you does not make your ban any less legitimate.
I’m sorry you feel you are wrongfully banned, and I hope we can come to some kind of conclusion on this, but it really isn’t colorpinpoint’s job to try and justify his ban to you.
Zeldo, just saying, your example is from RaRaRiot’s appeal, who actually was found guilty for no recoil, as well as aimbot and ESP, I.E. Color was right. On a different note, using ovl and using your judgment to determine something is not the same as having no proof. In fact, it is proof, just proof he has decided not to share. Doesn’t make it any less valid.
Edit: Also, recording each time wouldn’t limit ban appeals. Read through; lying is quite popular by appealers.
The fact that he did not choose to record me does not make my ban any less legitimate? So if I’m arrested in real life because someone THOUGHT they saw me breaking into a car, and they have NO proof whatsoever, I can be put in jail just because they said I did it? Do you even read your posts before you post them? You do not have any say in this if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
“In fact, it is proof, just proof he has decided not to share.”
I’ll use the same example as above. I’m convicted of stealing a car because someone said I did with no proof whatsoever. It turns out, ooh! He does have proof! It’s just that he doesn’t want to share ? You cannot read the moderator’s mind any better than I can. Now, this person has no proof, says he does but is not willing to share, and I am put in jail. Do either of you realize how ridiculous this sounds? How unfair this is?
Let’s imagine something here. Read over this entire thread, top to bottom. But, cover up the names, take out the little fancy nameplates that say “Moderator” or “Admin”. Look it over and make your opinion, because this is incredibly biased and unfair as of now.
Wait…
I thought this was going to be a fair topic.
So, if an admin or moderator (not Colorpin specifically), decided to ban someone, they could do so without having any proof and still have a “legitimate” and “valid” reason? I understand there isn’t a “need” to record things, but without it, banning someone seems very unjust. If you get arrested, wouldn’t you want proof of what you did wrong, not just the police officer saying “I didn’t need to”.
In my experience, arguments and punishments alike are nothing without proof. Saying that his ban is valid, legitimate, or even ‘right’ is completely false. I respect admins and moderators alike. I often will side with their call on a ban assuming they have proof that shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the alleged user has done wrong. At what point in time does it become okay for someone to slam down their gavel on someone without giving a reason?
This is completely unfair. While lying is popular, video often negates their words as long as it shows clear and convincing evidence. Even a screenshot of someone’s record of having, say, 1000 kills and 2 deaths in a minute could show this. (Yeah, impossible, but my point still stands.)
No matter how far you up in the hierarchy of anything, you can’t punish someone without giving a reason. You can’t punish someone, have proof, and say “Nah, I don’t need to show it”.
Zeldo’s argument is just as solid as Colorpinpoint’s. We are going over what they’re saying only. From what I can see, Zeldo is defending himself very well against everyone while Color has said very little. He may be busy. But honestly? I would trust his arguments over what other people are saying they think he’s doing or they think he didn’t do.
Colorpinpoint, I’m sure, is a great moderator. But your arguments aren’t helping anything. I feel bad that I have to argue as though he is the one saying these things. You should really think about what is actually ‘fair’ before posting.
I do want to clear this up. I am not saying Color is a bad moderator, a liar, or any negative connotations. This is, once again, a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up.
I think we need more communication and info on both sides, not just accusations being thrown about.
Guys, look, this is not analagous to a real life court case. Playing on a privately owned server is a privelege, and therefore they are allowed to ban you if they feel appropriate. You are not entitled by any means to play here. In court, freedom to stay out of jail is a right that can only be taken away if evidence is presented and it is determined by a neutral third party that one does not deserve to exercise said right. I’m not saying you’re guilty, but don’t act as if it is legally required that they provide hard evidence and show it to everyone in order to be allowed to ban you. Right now it’s your word against his, and just because no hard evidence has been provided does not mean your punishment is voided as it would be in a criminal case. By the way, I’m not insinuating you actually cheated, because people do make mistakes, and I’d like to see indisputable proof. However, I, as well as you all, am not entitled to see any.
le hack
get le banned for le hacking
WAH WAH LE I DIDN’T LE DO IT
W-W-WHY ISN’T HE LE UNBANNING ME?!! I AM LE POSTING ON LE 4CHAN TO GET LE PEOPLE TO DEFEND LE ME!
SO WHY LE ISN’T HE LE UBANNING ME?
You’re just going to have to deal with it, kiddo. You hack, you get banned. It doesn’t matter how good you, or your 4chan buddies think you are at providing arguments. The fact is, a moderator SAW you hacking. And if you’re lagging so bad that it looks like you’re hacking, you deserve to be permabanned anyway. Nobody likes laggers, hackers or laggy hackers.
EDIT: After reading through the 4chan thread, it appears Zeldo isn’t being entirely truthful to you! Who woulda thought? But anyway, check this out.
Some guy: everyone knows about this buggy shit you can also look thru underground blocks and above you sometimes.
Zeldo: “I was going to use that in my argument. But of course, then I’d have even more shit slung against me, because HURR NO U CANT U AHCKEEER”
Sounds to me like a hacker who’s looking for anything he can to get out of dealing with the consequences.
And now we wait for people to use the “4chan community sux LOL XD” argument rather than going over the actual arguments presented here.
What a great community here.
