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Author Topic: VPN Usage  (Read 991 times)

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Offline Kikk{SARs}

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 10:28:33 AM HST »
I thought Aloha already kicked VPN users, I recall seeing several kicks from "using proxy" or some such.

I say if it helps the admins then do it.

Sorry, just don't buy the argument of hiding your alias because you don't want people to know who you are to be valid.

Offline KungFuChicken

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2017, 12:47:54 PM HST »

it's enough of a problem that we're exploring options such as this to help us improve the experience for the majority, yes. really.

again, a lot more than you're imagining... for 6 years, not 5, actually. that's not suddenly.

again, please consider that maybe the reason you don't see the problem is because our efforts have been so focused on providing you that luxury.

what we're trying to do is improve the efficiency of our efforts so that we can continue helping the majority of players have a normal experience. your claim that a "large portion of players would be inconvenienced" is quite exaggerated because the truth of the matter is that only a very small portion of players use VPNs and we're already thinking about ways to make it as easy as possible for them to continue playing.

considering that lack of players is such a concern to you, you should be grateful that we're proactively taking steps to curb VPN abuse.

No. You're not responding to what I'm actually saying Izzy.

The fact that it's 5 or 6 years isn't the point; I simply plucked the number 5 from my behind. The point is that since those past 6 years you have always been dealing with players evading their bans. The very 'problem' you speak of has been existing since Aloha's beginning really. So what has made the existing methods for those past 6 years so incapable that we now have to suggest curbing everyone's access to VPN? In a time where BnS is at its lowest player count, and this is now a 'problem'? Seriously? The sudden thing is that you are suggesting this now.
Unless this suggestion is actually about making your job 'easier', which means this isn't a 'problem' then is it? Because it would be perfectly fine to carry on in the existing methods in dealing with ban evaders... just that it's a little annoying and inconvenient for staff, is that right?

Because tell me if I am wrong, but I don't see persistent hackers disturbing a beautiful game of Babel where everyone gets angry and rages or leaves. I don't see that. Rather than tell me it's "a lot more than you're imagining" bollocks, why don't you tell me how this problem is affecting the server and player-base exactly? I have ran enough servers, forums and communities across platforms to understand the basic effort that goes into maintaining things smoothly.


Now I chose to say "a large portion" because it doesn't give a specific number; I can't give a specific number. But, I do know if you did go through with this suggestion you would see a negative affect on the player count - because I'm not talking about a handful of players here, I'm talking about enough players to consistently show an affect; which is why I said "large portion".
Because luckily for you and I, Izzy, living in our lovely western civilizations, we don't feel the need to have to use VPN. With governments in various countries in South America and East Asia, a lot of user feel they need to use such things for their own safety. A lot of whom don't have Aloha accounts, don't speak English, who won't know why the server keeps kicking them and will simply leave or attempt another server (which doesn't sound hopeful given Babel seems to always be top).
Even if you want to disregard that, I think fundamentally everyone should have access to VPNs without being forced to create or login to an Aloha account. If this 'problem' did have obvious disturbances in games, I would probably say it is worth the cost. But not at some notion to simply make it "easier" or more "efficient" nonsense. Especially given the games lifetime.     

Offline KungFuChicken

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2017, 01:01:13 PM HST »

I have played enough games that became insufferable due to cheaters and griefers without an Admin being there to sort things out.
When an Admin is in the game, then it is wonderful to see one cheater after the other getting kicked out of the game. However, this is seldom the case.
Based on this, I am all for automated systems that make life for cheaters hard.

Therefore, Mr. Chicken, I am afraid that I have to disagree with your opinions above.

Fair enough. If that's what you truly see on Aloha servers then I can't say what you experience is false. It's just not the game I see. Whenever I join I see hackers getting rid of pretty quickly, I see Aloha as like the only 'safe space' where I can almost guarantee the game won't be ruined by a gay aimbotter. Aloha is the main reason I think BnS has quite frankly survived.

Offline izzy

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2017, 04:23:12 PM HST »
I thought Aloha already kicked VPN users, I recall seeing several kicks from "using proxy" or some such.

yes, currently a small list of VPN providers aren't allowed, but we want to change it so that all VPN providers are allowed with slightly increased use difficulty, which would add significant hurdles for abusers.

just that it's a little annoying and inconvenient for staff, is that right?

it's not "just a little annoying and inconvenient" because some evaders have nothing better to do with their lives than troll around all day... talk about wasting their own youth! :'( anyway, imagine you're at a party and there's a mosquito that consistently buzzes in everyone's ears, or a fly that consistently lands on everyone's food. now imagine that mosquito and fly are a thousand times their normal sizes and aggressively attacking everyone's fun to the point that it's not fun anymore. well, still "fun" for the evader, but everyone else will leave if we do nothing. sure we could continue consuming our efforts to shoo him away every few seconds, but currently he has the easier advantage. can you see my point yet? good, because we're essentially proposing the use of a bug zapper to more precisely target him and stop him dead in his tracks without everyone else knowing what hit him.

I have ran enough servers, forums and communities across platforms to understand the basic effort that goes into maintaining things smoothly.

as have i since 1996 or i'm pretty sure before that, i don't really remember exactly. various communities on varying platforms for various interests. 8) all of which weren't nearly as taxing as AoS players are. love you though, AoS players! :-*

But, I do know if you did go through with this suggestion you would see a negative affect on the player count - because I'm not talking about a handful of players here, I'm talking about enough players to consistently show an affect; which is why I said "large portion".

how can you be so sure? you're only assuming. your understanding of our plan isn't even accurate anyway. the server wouldn't kick them for using a VPN -- it would disable their building and weapons then spam their chat to inform them that they need to be logged in to build and shoot, no pun intended. we've already thought about translated localization for those messages as well.

Because luckily for you and I, Izzy, living in our lovely western civilizations, we don't feel the need to have to use VPN. With governments in various countries in South America and East Asia, a lot of user feel they need to use such things for their own safety.

assuming again. :P i've been living in Southeast Asia the past few years and i'm still here now. i use a VPN myself to improve my routing/lower my ping. however, as i've tried to explain before, our logs show that the vast majority of players don't use VPNs. those who do are the minority, and (i'm repeating myself) our plan already includes options specially for them, so how can you say we'd be disregarding them?

I think fundamentally everyone should have access to VPNs without being forced to create or login to an Aloha account.

are you forgetting that most games these days require some kind of central login/verification for all connections, not just VPNs? AoS is one of the few games that doesn't require any of that for its main playerbase. it's too open for its own good. we're not trying to change that, though! we're only trying to make it more difficult for VPNs to be abused.

Offline 3lb01k

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2017, 07:34:00 AM HST »
just that it's a little annoying and inconvenient for staff, is that right?

you're assuming that there's always a staff member in-game who can simply ban a hacker, which is frequently not the case.

I'd also add that you might have not seen many hackers ruining games because of your time zone, in which there are more admins.

but I don't see persistent hackers disturbing a beautiful game of Babel where everyone gets angry and rages or leaves.

I've seen exactly that at least a few times.

Offline Zehra

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2017, 02:05:31 PM HST »
I have not used VPN(s), but have been on other games, so I'm not sure if my opinion(s) would be of any value.

It requires a great deal of effort to block and prevent griefers/cheaters and other problematic players.
VPN(s) provide a method of bypassing bans to these people.

While this will be a bit controversial, I'll provide some of my thoughts.

Privacy is one reason stated that someone will use a VPN, but in the original proposal.
Hi everyone,
As of late, we've seen a lot of hackers using VPNs/proxies to bypass their bans, and so there is talk among the staff to ban most VPNs and proxies for non-trusted users.
However, we're aware that this would affect legitimate players using VPNs for whatever reason.
If you use a VPN while playing AoS, please comment below and tell us what you use it for, as well as your thoughts and ideas about solving this problem.

Cheers,
- 3lb01k
One would have to be a trusted user to use a VPN, which in term means, they already know you, so what would there be to hide?
Unless someone goes to a large extent to remain completely hidden, this would be a difficult argument to buy.

Large companies like Google, Microsoft and Facebook know a lot about you, in fact more than Aloha.pk knows about you.
If the concern is staff, they would know far less than any employee from Google, Microsoft or Facebook.

To avoid this from becoming too one sided, I will provide another position on the subject.

The part of providing a restriction to trusted users only is one with a bit too much zeal.
In term this defeats the purpose of privacy and will perhaps discourage some from perhaps joining.

How can it be made difficult enough for where problematic people will face some strong difficulty and where it is easy enough for a regular user to enjoy the game and play?

A possible solution is to require registration for any and all VPN users, so they will remain without issue on join if they are registered.
(I'm assuming it is easier to ban a user than banning an IP. *If I'm wrong, please correct me.*)

It should be a fairly easy approach as many services require one to register to do any form of interaction.
This approach should help prevent some of the abuse which happens in game.
(Thankfully it has not been much, due to an active staff  :) .)

In term this is not the best solution, but should be an effective one.

The only way to see how this potential solution works is to try it out and see how effective it is and if it creates some issues which are larger than expected. (This would be signified by a player drop which is larger than expected.)

As an added footnote, there is no way to know the full outcome, although with the limited knowledge I have of this, I think this will be a good solution for now.

Long term the solution is to bring automated methods for dealing with abuse which are integrated in the game.(I think.)

-Zehra
Let us start a game of Ace of Spades

Offline SpyKaps

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2017, 01:17:15 AM HST »
From what I understood youre suggesting we have some sort of registration method, after which the use of proxy will be allowed. The initial idea was to allow only trusted players to use proxies though as trusted isn't simple to get, simply logging in with an aloha.pk account was thought to be the best option. In my opinion, creating an aloha.pk acount doesnt require that much personal information so it isnt an unreasonable requirement.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Omae wa mou
Shindeiru

Offline Zehra

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2017, 09:13:19 AM HST »
From what I understood youre suggesting we have some sort of registration method, after which the use of proxy will be allowed. The initial idea was to allow only trusted players to use proxies though as trusted isn't simple to get, simply logging in with an aloha.pk account was thought to be the best option. In my opinion, creating an aloha.pk acount doesnt require that much personal information so it isnt an unreasonable requirement.

Yes, I think it will work alright and should be a good compromise.(Not too hard to use VPN and not to easy for abuse.)
It can be adjusted if needed in the future, but will probably be a good starting point for now.

-Zehra
Let us start a game of Ace of Spades

Offline Asian Guy

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2017, 02:29:17 PM HST »
From what I understood youre suggesting we have some sort of registration method, after which the use of proxy will be allowed. The initial idea was to allow only trusted players to use proxies though as trusted isn't simple to get, simply logging in with an aloha.pk account was thought to be the best option. In my opinion, creating an aloha.pk acount doesnt require that much personal information so it isnt an unreasonable requirement.

Just to hop off the train, I don't think the VPN usage is that big of a deal that we make it seem to be. Making an account just to simply play babel is a hassle and removes the fun of playing. Usually, people hop on and start playing and with the login system implemented, it would remove the accessibility that makes the game simple to play. It takes time to logon and would require a script to somehow keep the people invincible and stuck until they're logged in to also prevent the spawnkillers. I think that it's unnecessary to force everyone to login just for the sake of removing the problem of hackers using a VPN.

I think the sudden change to a login system would hurt the server population. I would say "Nay" to this proposal.
IGN: Asian Guy
Role: IGL, Scout
Weapon: Rifle

"If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles."

Offline SpyKaps

Re: VPN Usage
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2017, 02:34:57 PM HST »
Only those who do use a vpn though would have to login, which means that the affected playerbase is much less than the entire playerbase. The rest of the players do not have a need to.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Omae wa mou
Shindeiru